Heard some new tax payer numbers released today....amazing.

[jadennis]

So I just saw some numbers released by the IRS today for the 2007 tax year.

First, I'll preface this with some numbers from 1986, right after the tax reform bill was passed. Back then, the top 1% of earners in the nation paid right about 25% of our nations tax revenue. The bottom 95% paid about 58%.

For 2007, the top 1% paid a whopping 40.4% of the nations taxes. The bottom 95% paid just 39.4%.

So we currently have the top 1% (only about 1.4 million people) paying more than the bottom 95% (over 134 million people).

This also tells us that the top 5% (fewer than 6 million people out of 140 million taxpayers) of the income earners in our nation pay over 60% of all the income.

I don't know about you, but regardless of the fact that I will never be in the top 1%, I think that is unfair, to say the least. And the fact that the current push is to increase the load on that top 5% (and especially the top 1%) is just ridiculous.

Anyway, I know we all knew that the numbers were something like that, but this was actual data from the IRS. Unbelievable if you ask me.

[jonranwill]

Makes me sick. Just sick. Socialists we are becoming. Wealth redistribution right in front of our eyes.....When is VI Lenin going to pop out from behind the curtain like OZ?

[dpwspringer2]

What those numbers don't tell us is the income of those groups. And not just the taxable income but total income... and then you might want to see income per person and then include dependents to look at that as well. Do you expect people that don't make enough to survive without some kind of assistance to contribute as much in taxes as someone that makes a thousand times more?

I've retired and worked for two companies after I left Auburn. The first was a huge company and I was never in a position to understand how things operated. The second I spent a lot of years at and was there as it grew from a smallish company to a fortune 500 company. One of the things I noticed over the course of my career that troubled me was how the rich were getting richer while the poor were getting poorer. I would at times reflect back and think that young folks coming up had a more difficult time making it where they could support themselves and have a part of the American dream as compared to what was available for me. Another thing I got to see being part of a growing and thriving company was the attitude of the folks that ran things. When it was smaller and ran by the entrepreneurs that created it, they cared about employees and their lives. The professional managers that later ran it, not so much and then when it required the big time managers it was screw every one you could... just modern day corporate pirates in to rape and pillage... they can tax the hell out of them for all I care, they deserve it, they would steal every dime you got if they could even if they had so much they couldn't keep count of it.

[jadennis]

I think we all agree that those who make more should pay more...but to an extent. At some point its over board. And while that was your experience, I'm sure many others on here can give examples that contradict your experience.

Besides, that's not really the point (how people act when they run a company). Because a differentt attitude has developed in the less fortunate too. It used to be that their was a desire to work hard and move up in life. It used to be that people took it upon themselves to better their situation (rhere are plenrty of grants and g'ment assistance programs to help anyone that actually wants help in bettering themselves through hard work and education.

But these days, people don't look at what they can do for themselves, but what everyone else can do for them. Success is not a right. Its not the role of the government to make sure everyone has everything, but mereley to make sure everyone has an opportunity and right to those things. The liberal mindset is to take those that work for it and then hand it out to those who don't.

In time, like it has everywhere tha mindset has been implemented, it will make all involved complacent, as your work to move up isn't worth it as so much is taken. And ifyoure down, tjere is not much motivation either because you'll get twhay you need no maytter what yiu do.

Typing on my phone, sorry its so mixed up.

[xaff]

In 1986 they were not making as much as they are now. Now they pay even lesser percentage than they did in 86.

The top 1% own about 45% to 50% of the nation's wealth. That's more than the combined wealth of the bottom 95% of the nation.

The top 1% makes almost 35% of the net income in the US, a lot more than they did in 80s. The economy is driven by the 99%, not the top 1%. And the 99% are getting poorer. For each dollar that the bottom 90% make, the top 0.1% makes $18,000. Most of nation's wealth is going to inheritors, rather than innovators. That's why the economic growth is so bad.

Those making $10 Mil or more pay lesser percentage than those making 100K-200K, that's you and me. Amazing, isn't it? Dumbo the Idiot gave 15% of the tax cuts to the top 0.1% of the country.

The 'mobility', you know, where the poor get rich, is NEGATIVE in this country. The rich are getting richer, and that's about it.

This is not Democracy anymore, this is aristocracy. The power is supposed to be with the 99%, not the top 1%, or 0.1%. We are all powerless, purchasable, brainwashed commodities that the super-rich can manipulate. Ooo I feel sorry for the multimillionaires. How would they feed their poor children with so much tax.

Our country has the highest disparity between the rich and the poor. To hell with those pigs... the system is controlled by them, and they keep giving themselves raises, while the economic and production infrastructure is sinking. We've been exploited enough.

The system needs an enema and I needed to rant.

[WarEagleInSWFL]

My rant and two cents...

The complexity of the tax system has led to loop holes and tax shelters that leave the middle class footing the bill. What the numbers don't show is the number of people hiding their money with UBS and other off-shore banks. They don't show the number of coorporations that have been created to shift and hide money from the IRS. I have family members that make twice as much and pay half the taxes I do. It starts from the top...how many senators do you think use government transportation and funds to take vacations? That doesn't show up as income or reflect the fact that their personal expenses have been reduced. If they do pay for things themselves, they get to write it off as work-related expenses.

I like the idea posed by Mike Huckabee of abolishing the IRS and going to the Fair Tax system.

[jadennis]

Originally Posted by xaff

In 1986 they were not making as much as they are now. Now they pay even lesser percentage than they did in 86.

The top 1% own about 45% to 50% of the nation's wealth. That's more than the combined wealth of the bottom 95% of the nation.

The top 1% makes almost 35% of the net income in the US, a lot more than they did in 80s. The economy is driven by the 99%, not the top 1%. And the 99% are getting poorer. For each dollar that the bottom 90% make, the top 0.1% makes $18,000. Most of nation's wealth is going to inheritors, rather than innovators. That's why the economic growth is so bad.

Those making $10 Mil or more pay lesser percentage than those making 100K-200K, that's you and me. Amazing, isn't it? Dumbo the Idiot gave 15% of the tax cuts to the top 0.1% of the country.

The 'mobility', you know, where the poor get rich, is NEGATIVE in this country. The rich are getting richer, and that's about it.

This is not Democracy anymore, this is aristocracy. The power is supposed to be with the 99%, not the top 1%, or 0.1%. We are all powerless, purchasable, brainwashed commodities that the super-rich can manipulate. Ooo I feel sorry for the multimillionaires. How would they feed their poor children with so much tax.

Our country has the highest disparity between the rich and the poor. To hell with those pigs... the system is controlled by them, and they keep giving themselves raises, while the economic and production infrastructure is sinking. We've been exploited enough.

The system needs an enema and I needed to rant.

If the rich get richer, so be it, good for them. The "oh you poor millionaire" scenario just doesn't do it for me. It's so easy to say for those of us that aren't millionaires. I would think we may feel different if we made $950,000 and sent back $400,000+ of it. Sure, they aren't hurting because of it, but that doesn't make it right or remotely fair.

And I have a hunch about why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. There has been a shift in the mindset of this country. I think there used to be a more upward mobility from the bottom quarter to one of the middle quarters because people used to work there butts off to do it.

Men worked two jobs, mothers worked, kids made an effort in school, became the first in their families to go to college, got a degree, get a better job, and moved up from the bottom quarter to a middle quarter.

These days? The bottom quarter says "hey, it's not fair that I'm in the bottom quarter, do something for me". It's bull if you ask me. As for the rich getting richer? Well, I don't think they have changed their mind set, they still think the same way they did when they got rich to begin with.

Also, for the 1%....where do we think all the jobs come from? I haven't met many people that worked for a poor man. I want to work for someone rich that can afford to pay me. If he has airplanes and beach houses and boats, well then good for the realtor who sold him the house, good for the sales guy that sold him the boat (which was good for the rich owner of the giant boat store).

There is nothing wrong with rich people getting richer. It's a tough fight for lower end, but they have stopped fighting to better their situations these days (and this is an opinion of the lower end in general, certainly there are still exceptions).

I really believe that if the younger generations had to build this country it wouldn't happen. They feel too entitled to things. They feel everyone owes them something. 200 or even 100 years ago, you made it for yourself or it just didn't happen. We have come to expect too much from out government. They are supposed to give us a framework in which to work and succeed, they aren't supposed to hold our hand through it all, take from those who worked their way up and give to those who didn't work (at least not at a higher rate than they currently do).

I would also dispute some of the statements made. The number of millionaires jumped from a 12 in 1800 to 300 in 1860, 4,500 in 1902, 30,000 in 1929, 5,000 in 1932, 100,000 in 1966, and 4 million in 2000. The rate of growth of millionaires has always outpaced the growth rate of the overall population and inflation, and that hasn't changed now. How are there so many new millionaires unless people are moving up from not being a millionaire?

Anyway, I don't think the rich need any more breaks, but we already have the highest corporate tax of any relevant economic nation in the world, and that's a fact. So I'm not sure how you figure "we" are being exploited by comparison. The fact is, nearly everyone is screwed to varying degrees by the way the government pisses away all of our money, the riches money and the middle classes money.

And my point for starting this post was that this same "government" is attempting to put their hands on more of what's ours, and take more of what's ours, and I just think in the end, they will simply be in position to piss away even more of everyone's money.

[WarEagleInSWFL]

This may be slightly off subject, but...

I hear where you're coming from, but times are different now. A person can no longer work 40 or even 50 hours a week and support his/her family. Today it takes two incomes and there are no longer any good options for retirement. There are no more pension plans, no more profit sharing, no more bonuses, and there will be no more Social Security. Very few companies still match your 401K. I am currently 32 and will have to put every penny back that I plan to have for retirement...which will not be until I'm 90. So while there may be an image of entitlement to the younger generations, I feel sorry for kids just now getting out of college that know how their parents could get an annual raise, take two weeks of vacation every year, received pension and/or some sort of stock option, work for the same company for more than 10 years, and could retire before the age of 70. It will never be like that again.

The only good thing to come of the current corporate environment in America is that people like me are sick of working for someone else. I think you are going to see another wave of entrepreneurship in this country because having a long term career at a company is no longer a viable option.

[xaff]

You saw how much the top 1% are paying for now, compared to what they were paying in 1980.

In 70s the top 1% made 9% of all the income. In 80s the top 1% made about 10% of all the income. Today the top 1% makes 22.5% of the income. They make twice as much (in percentage of total income), however they are not supporting twice as much (in percentage of total expense). This is where the answer ends. The percentage dropped.

The rest is just another rant of mine. Feel free to skip it.

I was wrong when I stated that top 1% makes 35% of all the income. The top 1% income is about 22.8%. They own 40-50% of the net wealth though.
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Under the administration of dumbya, the top 1% had almost 75% of the total growth, whereas the median income of 99% fell from 42K to 41K. The Gini index reached 82%. it goes from 0 (everyone's equal ) to 1 (most inequality).

America is not the country of the super rich, at least it wasn't supposed to be. It was the country where small businesses flourished. Tell me how many manufacturing or production upstarts have you seen since mid 80s? People are unable to start, not because everyone is looking for handouts. We've always been enterprising, industrious people and will always be that way.

Your working for a rich guy does not help the economy 1/10th as much as you starting your own business, and employing a few people would. The conditions should be established to empower you to do that.

If we hang that rich guy by his entrails and distribute his income into 100 people, we will have a LOT of growth instead of one house and one boat. We'd probably have 99 houses and 30 odd boats. I am not suggesting that you should kill your boss. I am just saying that doing so .. while criminal .. can be economically beneficial. And out of those 99, I think at least 3 or 4 will avail that opportunity to make it as big as that pig did.

I say close all the loopholes, put an even tax structure and let the businesses flourish. And slam the CEOs with income tax, that way they direct the money to hiring people like JaDennis instead of stuffing it in their coffers.

About the number of Millionaires, I think you are talking in absolute terms, and I am talking in year-2000 dollars.

Anyways, this is a very long topic, and I don't think either of us have time to carry out a discussion on it. Honestly I don't. I need to get back to work. I'm pretty much in Ron Paul's camp on a few issues so that will tell you whether you should discuss things with me or just let me be. heh

[jadennis]

You're right, and the less than 1% of the real depth of the subject that I know isn't enough basis to discuss things very far beyond my opinion anyway. We can probably spend all day finding various stats to support how we see it.

To me, I still see the "rich guy" I mentioned as simply the owner of a small business (500 or fewer employees). These type business still run America. They represent 99.7% of all the "firms" in the country, creating as much as 80% of the new jobs in any given year, and represent over half of the nations non-farm GDP.

So to me, the more of these people there are the better. But as we continue to increase tax at a personal level and a business level (small or otherwise), it diminishes the motivation to start these businesses. It makes people think that they may as well just work for the big company where they can make 80% of the same money, with 80% fewer headaches.

Oh well xaff, you're right, if we're going to "waste time" (rightly described) discussing things, it should be more enjoyable things like Auburn football, not this never ending quagmire that is our current government.